The highest amount of praise is to be given to the awesome US intelligence network that has been working behind the scences for 10 years to nab this creep. I've been listening to NPR interviews with former intelligence guys and it's fascinating to hear about all of the clandestine actions that are taken and how everything needs to fall into place perfectly for something of this magnitude to happen. This is a very important symbolic victory for the United States. I say symbolic because I don't think this really changes much, al-Qaeda is still around and they still are organized well enough to carry out attacks. But this demonstrates that the US is still very active and gaining A+ intelligence, our military is freakin' awesome (don't pretend like there isn't a part of you that wouldn't love to have been in on that raid if you were freakish enough to be a Navy Seal), and that we are capable of winning this. Those in intelligence and in the military who carried this out are national heroes and are unlikely to participate in anything this big, career-wise, ever again.
The president demonstrated excellent leadership here. Obama often has seemed (to me at least) to not be up to the task. He has seemed to be one-step behind and incapable of being decisive and quick to act or respond. Well, when we've needed a decisive and unshakable president the most, he stepped up. Good for him and good for the United States. Sunday's raid has been forming behind the scenes since August according to Obama's message. It was an amazing task and as commander-in-chief, the guy who has to make the final call, he deserves a tip of the hat. I'm proud. There are concerns now that Pakistan was helping to shelter Osama and I'm sure the US government will be asking tough questions and giving them an earful if that turns out to be true but the president's speech Sunday night was very well delivered. It was cautious, deliberate, and aware of the fact that there is still much to learn. He's traveling to New York this week to meet with 9/11 victims' families and that's great. It's a big moment.
And what better way to celebrate a big moment for America than at America's game. This photo comes from a spontaneous, late-inning home run celebration last night by Boston's David Ortiz. David Ortiz was not born in this country, making this display of appreciation for the US military a little more meaningful and highlighting that Bin Laden's death should be welcomed by people the world over because his resume of terror hasn't been limited just to the United States.
Props to US Intelligence and our military personnel. but the rest of this post makes me gag. Obama didn't do ANYTHING in this except probably sit through briefings. Intelligence and Special Ops did it ALL.
ReplyDeleteBut of course, the man is going to suck up the praise. Great timing for him too with the election next year.
Sorry Troy, I'm not buying it! But I am thrilled that the guy is dead. I just wish it could have happened after a few months in abu ghraib prison:) (That should rile up a few of you lefty's:)
The president is the head of the military. True, he didn't do any of the intelligence gathering or gun shooting but he has to make the final call to act on intelligence based on the level of confidence that those on the ground have. Hence, I specifically said that the highest praise goes to the intelligence folks and the military.
ReplyDeleteHonestly, if you had asked me ahead of time, I wouldn't have thought that Obama was capable of making this call. So much could have gone wrong and Obama hasn't appeared to be decisive enough to rapidly make the decision here. I'm glad he proved me wrong in this instance. This was much different than an action where you blow the compound sky high. Sending a handful of Navy Seals in a helicopter, in the wee hours of the morning, without the Pakistanis knowing about this, was very, very risky. Obama made a gutsy call to sign off on this. Besides, if this had happened on the watch of a conservative president (or even George Bush) I think your tune would be different. I'm just trying to keep it real Ammon. This is a great moment and shouldn't be tainted by typical democrat/republican feuds.
I kind of agree though that it would have been nice to have captured him for a few months to try and "gently" extract information from him. But then you have to adhere to international POW laws and what now. No, better that we just shoot him in the head and save ourselves the trouble.
Whatever. This isn't about dem/rep feuds. I don't believe that it was a tough choice. If he hadn't made the call and it got out that he had basically let him get away it would have been the end of his political career. He had NO choice. Even if the whole mission had gone awry he would have been praised for going after the wolf.
ReplyDeleteOh, and why the heck does he pronounce pakistanis so freaking weird?! :)
Well, here's a lefty comment. I'm neither impressed nor disappointed with Obama in this regard. I think he made about as good a call as I'd expected pretty much any president to make. However, I do think Ammon, that your views on this would be different if it would have been a president that you liked. I'm sure you'd have been more impressed. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my guess.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the reason why I comment is the whole rejoicing here in a death (talking to you Ammon again). If I recall correctly, there haven't been any references in the scriptures about Heavenly Father, Christ or prophets rejoicing in the destruction of life. Sure, at times it was necessary, and so it was done, but no one ever seemed 'thrilled' about it. I'm glad the hunt for Osama is over. Hopefully that will bring some good. I'm saddened though that this is how it had to be. I'm definitely not "thrilled" at his death, even though I considered it a necessity. Honestly, Ammon, comments like yours really bother me. Mostly because I get annoyed when I feel someone is trying to be all righteous (and thinking someone who votes for Obama isn't deserving of a temple recommend because they support abortion that way...when this connection is so far out there) and then being "thrilled" about the death of another human being when that's clearly not how Heavenly Father feels or what is being taught (how about praying/loving our enemies and all that jazz from Matthew 5 etc.???). I just find it quite hypocritical.
Fran
Well, I recognize that the noble and Christ-like thing would be to shudder at the fact that bin Laden's evil immortal soul now has to go meet his maker and suffer a very awful time repenting (if he so chooses to accept the truth). However, I'm a mortal and cannot find it within myself to honestly feel that way. Remember, Christ condemned nothing more often than hypocrisy:) So I'll be completely unhypocritical and admit that I'm pleased Osama is dead. Now I'm not inclined to run into the streets waving flags and chanting "USA!", because the event isn't large enough to warrant that. If his death meant the end of terrorism then perhaps I would feel uncontrollable jubilation like that but I don't think it's worth being that happy over.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that Obama was left without a choice. This could have been very bad. Remember Iran in the 1970s and Jimmy Carter? And part of the decision isn't just whether or not to do it but HOW to do it. Very risky sending in the Seals when a big fat bomb would have accomplished the same thing.
Fran,
ReplyDeleteFirst, you are COMPLETELY misrepresenting what my view is on voting. I only hold myself to that standard (of not voting for people who support abortion). I don’t judge anyone else who feels differently. I was only surprised that so few people actually feel that way. But that really doesn’t impact anyone but me. So, I really don’t think we have any problem here. Not even sure why you are trying to bring it up again.
Secondly, I think that the doctrines you mentioned from Matthew are wisdom for how we should feel/act about our personal enemies. NOT for ENEMIES OF THE STATE or even the world. Some people just need to die.
This is one of the issues that the war chapters in the Book of Mormon address specifically. Captain Moroni understood that about Amalickiah and later his brother Ammoron.
Alma 46:30 …therefore he (Captain Moroni) thought to cut off the people of Amalickiah, or to take them and bring them back, and put Amalickiah to death; yea, for he knew that he would stir up the Lamanites to anger against them, and cause them to come to battle against them; and this he knew that Amalickiah would do that he might obtain his purposes.
Often, you seem to get distracted by terminology. I think that Troy understood the spirit of what I was trying to say.
Am I “thrilled” by the action of killing or of murder? No. Of course not. But I am thrilled to know that some measure of wickedness has been ended. I am thrilled that Osama will not be a contributor to further wicked designs in the future. That he cannot train up more youths with such hatred and malice. And I am thrilled that some measure of justice has been done in the world. Being an American, I cannot help but be glad to feel a bit of closure.
I for one do not think there is anything hypocritical in celebrating the end of one who was intent to do wrong all the days of their life. I believe that a person can push off the “spirit of Christ” so completely that there is honestly nothing valuable left in them. I agree with Moroni, that removal of one who has embraced and taught and endorsed evil is not wrong.
I for one, am glad that the following people who are dead are dead. And I will gladly celebrate the end of such wickedness in the future! (Please note the terrible list below)
Worst Genocides of the 20th Century
Evil Dictators Name -- Estimated Dead at their hands
Mao Ze-Dong -- 49-78,000,000
Jozef Stalin -- 23,000,000
Adolf Hitler -- 12,000,000
Leopold II of Belgium -- 8,000,000
Hideki Tojo -- 5,000,000
smail Enver -- 1,200,000 Armenians + 350,000 Greek Pontians + 480,000 natolian Greeks + 500,000 Assyrians
Pol Pot -- 1,700,000
Kim Il Sung -- 1.6 million
Menghistu -- 1,500,000
Yakubu Gowon -- 1,000,000
Leonid Brezhnev -- 900,000
Jean Kambanda -- 800,000
Suharto -- 800,000
Saddam Hussein -- 600,000
Tito -- 570,000
Fumimaro Konoe -- 500,000
Jonas Savimbi -- 400,000
Mullah Omar - Taliban -- 400,000
Idi Amin -- 300,000
Yahya Khan -- 300,000
Benito Mussolini -- 300,000
There are unfortunately many more. :(
Ok, I just lost my whole comment, and I'm too lazy to retype.
ReplyDeleteHere's a quote from Martin Luther King that sums up how I feel:
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you guys were saying. I personally, while I realize that death may at times be necessary, don't understand why anyone who tries to follow Christ would rejoice in the killing of someone else, even if it's an evil person.
Also, Ammon, I totally don't agree with your interpretation of Matthew. God has clearly invited us to love EVERYONE, at no point has he anywhere suggest that there is a single human we are not obligated to learn to love. Anyway, I would just hope that as disciples of Christ, we can be noble or charitable enough to not be giddy about a death, even if it apparently was both a necessary and deserved one. Lastly, I also don't think we should judge the state of a soul...actually, I think we've been clearly invited not to judge what will happen to someone eternally. Who knows what will happen to Osama. He may have really thought he was doing the will of God. He may be really surprised and humble to find out how wrong he was, and change, and become a true disciple of Christ. Who knows? How could be ever truly judge those things? So, I don't shudder.
anyway, whatever. I gotta go. I just don't get the people waving flags, dancing in the streets, and being all gleeful about a death. Well, no. I kind of get it. But I would expect more from those who try to be like Christ. Sorry if I misunderstood you guys though. Not my intention.
Fran, the first part of your quote there has been misattributed to MLK. Nobody knows who said that or if it was made up. Granted, the sentiment is no less meaningful but still...
ReplyDeleteThe last part of that quote is, in fact, from MLK. However, I would argue that killing bin Laden is not returning hate for hate. For me, we didn't kill bin Laden because we hated him, we killed him because he poses a serious threat to people around the globe and is seeking new young men to corrupt and make evil. The fact, that one of the administration's recommendations was to capture him if at all possible makes clear that we weren't seeking his life as revenge. But then, the raid resulted in a fight and he was shot.
I agree, in principle, that God would ask me to love Osama bin Laden meaning that I ought to be concerned for the welfare of his soul. And I am, I really am. I do honestly hope that he can find truth and forgiveness now. That would be an amazing testimony of Christ's atoning power even for the most vile among us.
First,thank you for updating your blog Troy!
ReplyDeleteI think what is happening around the world is a matter of confusing death of a man with death of a symbol. I hope that no Christian is rejoicing at the death of man, but instead they rejoice at the death of a symbol.
Like so many evil leaders, he needed to be stopped. In this case death was how it happened, but arrest was another potential outcome. I think many people are happy with the end of his evil actions.
I think these are profoundly different concepts that we unfortunately don't always articulate very well. "I am happy he is dead," should really be "I am happy that he has been stopped." At least that is how I am seeing it right now.
I think you've captured the mood Kyle and I think the celebratory crowds in the streets have been triggered by the death of a symbol, as you say. The evidence of this is that, since these wars began, a number of high-ranking al-Qaeda officials have been killed. These killings did not spawn celebrations like what was seen earlier this week because those men were not the symbolic head of the terrorist organization.
ReplyDeleteFran,
ReplyDeleteI honestly doubt that you try to understand what I am ACTUALLY saying.
I'm not waving flags in the street.
I never said I "hated" Osama. Never even implied it.
I also NEVER "judge[d] the state of [his] soul." didn't even remark upon it.
So before you imply that someone who is "trying to be all righteous" is "rejoice[ing] in the killing of someone" and all "giddy about a death" and essentially calling me a hypocrite, you should really TRY to UNDERSTAND what I am actually saying.
You obviously do not know me if you think so lowly of me.
-Ammon
Troy and Kyle... Finally somebody who can grasp what I was trying to say.
ReplyDeleteOk, guys, take DEEP breath.
ReplyDelete1. My second comment got lost initially, leading to what was actually posted not being as clear (I was too lazy to re-type everything I had in there). So, let me clarify now...
2. Ammon - I do not think you're some lowly being. I know you're a good person. However, just because you're good, (or because I'm good, or Troy, or Kyle or whoever), doesn't mean we're always right in what we do...
3. I did not accuse you of anything. I said I found your whole being "thrilled" about Osama death and wanting him tortured in Abu Ghraib hypocritical. I brought this up in connection with your views on abortion and temple recommends. So let me clarify that part first.
3. I consider unworthiness to hold a temple recommend if voting for someone who supports abortion a spiritual stretch. I'm fine with you having those views, but because I consider it " a stretch", I also equate it with "trying really hard to be righteous", which isn't a bad thing. We all should try really hard to be righteous. But, as I said, if someone tries that hard in areas that aren't that clear, that they'd be hard core in the stuff that IS clear - like the fact that we should love even our enemies, and that God doesn't rejoice in killings.
4. You HAVE implied hateful feelings towards Osama. Saying you're thrilled at someone's death, and that you wished it would have happened after a stay in a prison known for torture IMPLIES hateful feeling. But, as it goes, implications do not equate actual meaning. So, your second comment made it clearer to me that this may not have been how you actually felt, and that your feeling were probably more like what Kyle described. I recognized and acknowledged that in my unposted second comment. My commenting on dancing in the streets etc. was not targeted at you at all, but a comment on general behavior of Americans right now. Not all of my words are aimed at you, Ammon. Speaking of which...
5. Judging souls was also not something I actually accused you of, Ammon. Troy talked about that, and my comments were aimed at him. However, that wasn't clear because I didn't make it clear in my re-type of my original second comment. Again, not all my words are aimed at you, Ammon.
6. Kyle, I like how you separated the perceptions of death of a person and death of a symbol. I think you're probably right on with your comment, and I have to stop judging so quickly, and re-examine how I think about people's actions. Troy, you're also making a good point with how other terrorist deaths have been handled vs. Osama. So, gasp!, I'm a hypocrite, too...
7. I didn't imply Ammon. I actually said stuff. I straight out said that I find XYZ hypocritical. However, you shoudn't take it so personal that now you deny me meaning my own words. I take you at face value of your words most of the time. I'd like the same in return, please. If I say that I try to understand, and apologize for misunderstanding, I don't see why you need to doubt my good intentions. When you say you're "thrilled" at a death, I took it at face value. When you explained what you meant by it, I accepted that, and didn't think that you actually still felt differently than you said you did.
8. I actually grasp what you say, Ammon. I may not always agree, but I "grasp" it. I hope you weren't implying I'm stupid. (I'm saying this half-humorously...partially teasing, but also honestly hoping you're not implying such, because I don't think I'm so thick to not get your explanations of your view points!).